My "Christian" Experience

last SG · 2008-05-14T15:01:06+00:00

lol, naked = satanic.hope of god ppl.. really drama la. everything = satanic. my answer to them: God is Satan.

dumbdumb! SG

They did something, didn't they?

They *pray* that the kids inside will get saved.

Please don't tell me praying for people is NATO.

Of course, your burning house analogy is weak. In real life, the kids will be desperate to escape. BUT note what Paul said about the unsaved - it is in their nature to reject the gospel.

they pray, that they will be saved. if they preached, after they pray about it and God used them, they would have answered their own prayers. so what? christians only preach but don't pray for the unsaved's salvation?

is it impossible to do both? or is it some special God's command that catholics pray, but christians do?

ha.. that's the best analogy to describe how it is. unfortunately. i hope it still makes sense though

Icemoon SG

It is not about you. It is about God and God only. Please lah, to say a slave to sin can earn his own freedom is a joke. In the slave analogy, you can't even do your small part by walking out of prison like prison break. No, the prison is too comfortable for you and only with the regeneration by the Holy Spirit *first* then will you agree to walk out and get converted.

In other words, salvation is the work of the sovereign God *only* according to the Christian theory of monergism.

Don't say "chey, theory only". It is a very attractive theory you know? Scientific theories explain natural phenomena, theological theories answer life's burning questions.

I see you guys discussing, want to peng. Like you all don't know your own rich Protestant tradition like that.

I find it amusing because Chin Eng and dumbdumb have one thing in common with the Roman Catholics (malcom, mrlimkopi, 24/7?) with regards to salvation - they are synergists!! Wah leow, instead of checking their own tradition, they go shooting their fellow mates.

Hmm, Chin Eng is synergist or not? The Methodist founders are, but Chin Eng sounds a bit monergist to me. :P

For example, the reformed position has faith as an effect of election rather than a cause of it (as the Arminians have it). Thus, there is a sense in which a person is saved in order to have faith. Where, then, should blame be laid if a person does not believe? The Arminian position has the believer responsible for whether or not God saves them, and thus a person must persevere to the end before they can be assured of salvation. What does this say about a believer's security? These and many other questions are dependant upon the "ordo salutis" for their answers, and it is thus important that a believer understands from which perspective those answers are given.

http://www.theopedia.com/Ordo_salutis

dumbdumb! SG

In other words, salvation is the work of the sovereign God *only* according to the Christian theory of monergism.

Don't say "chey, theory only". It is a very attractive theory you know? Scientific theories explain natural phenomena, theological theories answer life's burning questions.

I see you guys discussing, want to peng. Like you all don't know your own rich Protestant tradition like that.

Hmm, Chin Eng is synergist or not? The Methodist founders are, but Chin Eng sounds a bit monergist to me. :P

unfortunately, just like everybody else, what little i know is from what Iearnt. So i guess i'll just fall back on the only one thing I can believe in. the wages of sin is death, and the gift of God is eternal life, He who has the son, has life, he who doesn't have the son, doesn't have life.

and i know i've been very testy of late. i tried to bow out, but apparently, coffeeboy here insulted my effort by smirking and commenting that it was a great way to escape an arguement i cannot support with the bible. sucks right? no choice lor. got to go down swinging if i have to. besides it is a great outlet for me to trash out everything with catholics, since i've got a very big personal grudge against them. can't let it drop yet.

Icemoon SG

is it impossible to do both? or is it some special God's command that catholics pray, but christians do?

ha.. that's the best analogy to describe how it is. unfortunately. i hope it still makes sense though

Aiyah, why you like take things so negatively.

As said, Catholics are uncomfortable with hardcore preaching (read: talking), instead they prefer to evangelize with their actions. Do you know the difference between evangelism and preaching?

This is how Protestants do it also. There is no one single strategy for evangelism. Some people distribute bibles, some people build Christian homes like orphanage, drug rehabilitation centers and hospices overseas. I have first hand experience with overseas Protestant missionary efforts done by different churches (all linked by their love for Christ and mankind), having visited them overseas, so I definitely know how it is like. By the way, I have also distributed bibles so I know how it is like too.

If I use your argument to evaluate the success of those missionary efforts, then they will have failed miserably, according to the corporate definition of effectiveness. You see, a megachurch's one altar call beats their work for one whole year.

dumbdumb! SG

and the interesting thing is. catholics view works as part of the entry test of salvation. so how saved is kopi now? what works does he have aside from the accumulated long hours of hard work of prayers.

if works determines if someone is saved. am i more saved? is he less saved?

dumbdumb! SG

Aiyah, why you like take things so negatively.

As said, Catholics are uncomfortable with hardcore preaching (read: talking), instead they prefer to evangelize with their actions. Do you know the difference between evangelism and preaching?

i wasn't even pissed until i was insulted, for deciding to let go, since kopi didn't get that not everyone who goes to church does it because they love God (another way of saying, not all good works are done with a good heart, so how can works be a way of knowing you're saved?)

Icemoon SG

I find it amusing Protestants like to parade bible verses. To me, that's the last thing you should do.

Ok lah, granted you have an obligation to parade John 3:16 and John 14:6 to preach, but that's about it.

The Protestant Reformation did not say every Christian can now interpret the Bible on his own per se, after all if you know history, the Protestant fathers also burned people at the stake for heresy. See lah, the reason why you have megachurches with questionable doctrine is precisely that.

This is where standing on the shoulder of giants can be useful. But make sure you stand on the correct giant, don't stand on Goliath hor.

dumbdumb! SG

I find it amusing Protestants like to parade bible verses. To me, that's the last thing you should do.

Ok lah, granted you have an obligation to parade John 3:16 and John 14:6 to preach, but that's about it.

This is where standing on the shoulder of giants can be useful. But make sure you stand on the correct giant, don't stand on Goliath hor.

lol, when i don't parade verses, some moron told me what i said was invalid because i didn't support it with verses. when i do, another one told me it's a bad idea.

Chin Eng SG

Hmm, Chin Eng is synergist or not? The Methodist founders are, but Chin Eng sounds a bit monergist to me. :P

so what am I? or who am I? ha ha. I am quite confused now...

why associate me with the Methodist founders? I have never been a conformist, as a Christian or as an individual.

you see, Ice, you are the learned one with all the super chim terms.... I, on the other hand, do not have the benefit of higher education and my thought process is actually quite simplistic, a result of a mispent youth.... 8-)

Chin Eng SG

I find it amusing Protestants like to parade bible verses. To me, that's the last thing you should do.

don't generalize leh.... you know I don't like to parade verses.....

Icemoon SG

lol, when i don't parade verses, some moron told me what i said was invalid because i didn't support it with verses. when i do, another one told me it's a bad idea.

You might have started on the wrong footing. So you basically dug your own grave, with those verses.

See how theology is studied. You have various topics, and verses are used to support the point made. You don't parade a verse, then say the verse means this and this. Rather a group of verses are paraded to support your stand.

dumbdumb! SG

and yet, am i wrong to say that christians who love God will goto church, but christians who goes to church, may not love God?

Icemoon SG

so what am I? or who am I? ha ha. I am quite confused now...

why associate me with the Methodist founders? I have never been a conformist, as a Christian or as an individual.

I find it weird many Christians are not proud of their own denominational tradition. Those megachurch don't say lah, what tradition do they have?

One baptist told me in EH last time, they emphasize a lot on studying the word of God. And he is very proud of that.

When I read about the Wesley brothers, I was like wow. One can preach, the other can compose. Today, if you open your hymnal, you find hymns composed by Charles Wesley. Aren't you proud of that? Just like I think hokkiens should be proud of hokkien hay mee, teochew for their porridge.

No lah, not higher education. It is enlightening for me to [try to] understand the various theologies.

Don't say all the studying no use one ok. Try following the Reformed argument for their ordo salutis, you'd be impressed. I can tell you honestly I am. I'm impressed not because they managed to come out with theories like monergism, but with their staunch belief in the sovereignty of God.

So God is very much sovereign. He determines who are saved, who are not by the elects. In fact, according to the covenant of redemption:

The covenant of redemption is the eternal agreement within the Godhead in which the Father appointed the Son Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit to redeem the elect from the guilt and power of sin. God appointed Christ to live a life of perfect obedience to the law and to die a penal, substitutionary, sacrificial death as the covenantal representative for all who trust in him.

So Christ died for his sheeps or the goats or all animals? I think you guys were talking about sheeps and goats. Perhaps if you understand the Arminian or Reformed perspective, things will be clearer.

Icemoon SG

and yet, am i wrong to say that christians who love God will goto church, but christians who goes to church, may not love God?

Disagree slightly with the first part. Agree with the second.

Icemoon SG

if works determines if someone is saved. am i more saved? is he less saved?

Interestingly, only Protestants have this problem.

Judaism, Islam and Catholic Christianity do not have a problem with that.

Weird right? Maybe you need to align your perspective a bit.

malcom SG

So in your opinion, is scripture perfect or divinely inspired?

so far, I don't think the issue is whether this or that is "error", but more on whether the context of any given verse is read correctly or not.

if it is agreed in Christendom that parables are parables, but an individual wishes to take a more literal approach, it is his prerogative to do so. Nonetheless it is really quite foolish to go along that line.

Regarding Mat 5:29-30, you may be tempted to think that it should not be taken seriously because Jesus ask us to tear out our eyes, but as MrLimKopi said, you miss the real message. The real message is that Jesus is trying to tell us it is very serious to sin, whether you are believer or non believer.
There is a story in the miracle by Padre Pio, I know you may not take Catholic saint seriously, but if you have open mind, find out the message behind this story from Pietruccio case and compare with Gemma Di Giorgi case, then you see that I mean.
There are Protestants who say the miracles in Catholic saint to be demonic, but as Jesus tell us, just look at the fruit.
http://www.catholictradition.org/Saints/padre-pio11c.htm

dumbdumb! SG

lol. as someone once said something like this, is there a bible reference to these stories? if there's no bible backing, these testimonies are just fairy tales, just like my testimonies apparently

dumbdumb! SG

Disagree slightly with the first part. Agree with the second.

hmm, can explain why u disagree? and if you agree with the 2nd, then it would make sense.

because catholics believe that works is part of salvation. but who knows the reason why they do good works? can good work done with the wrong intention be any good?

my stand is that salvation is by faith and faith alone. and that faith, will produce good works (because the heart will always be in the right place) in it's own course.

good works, driven by love. and not because it's an obligation for salvation (since i don't worry about it) but EVERYTHING was shot down and condecended on because i didn't type in bible verses for it. (ah~~ catholic!)

Icemoon SG

dumbdumb, theology answers many burning questions.

Like you talked about how to know whether you are saved or not, when faith can be like a rollercoaster. And whether salvation is a one time thing. And whether people who are doing good work to "maintain" their salvation are "evil".

All these are found under the topic of Perseverance.

dumbdumb! SG

dumbdumb, theology answers many burning questions.

All these are found under the topic of Perseverance.

i was taught that salvation can be denied. say a christian meets an asshole online, and stumbled by his condecending ways, decides to become an athiest. he denied salvation and lost his faith in the exisntance of God and the goodness of salvation. Then he'd be as good as the unsaved. that explains why they have altar calls for backsliders along with non believers.

but the point wasn't about perseverance. the point was at the point of believing. do you need good works as part of salvation.

if you do, then the thief wouldn't be in paradise, the sinful woman wouldn't be told that it was her faith which saved her, a dying man at his death bed, believed at the last second, wouldn't make it either. unless you say God is a wishy-washy God who gives different conditions to different people at different circumstances regarding salvation

but NO~ everything i said isn't valid.

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